[Smurf]

Whoa, first, on topic response. I believe they will be doing what they are now with even more armies/equipment.

Off topic, well, this certainly is interesting.... All I have to say is Canada, along with the other British Colonies fought well, but Great Britain is already in the mod. Canada should be in it eventually, but there are more important nations, like Poland. (no, that isn't sarcasm either)

As for soldiers and heros, that is your personal preference. No one is wrong or right on that topic. Then again if you call the Waffen SS, SS Death Head units, and for the most part the Red Army in WWII heros, then that is an exception to the rule. *hopes he won't need to explain their war crimes*

For me, a hero is someone that throws themself on a gernade to save his squad or someone that gets any medal during the war except the purple heart.

Fook: You just had to do that and remind him of the SS Viking division, eh?

[Meltdown]

Why Canada is not in the game/games... Because pimply faced, pre-pubescent, pre-teen boys who play alot of these games (or even the 20-30's range age group) think WW-II they, FOR THE MOST PART, have no clue Canada was even involved. They think UK, US, France, Germany, Russia, etc... Just look at popular strategy board games (which pre-date the PC Games) like "Axis and Alies". Who do they have? US, UK, Germany, Russia, Italy, Japan and that's it. It's all about marketing and targeting the product at the largest group. Canadians were just as great of men as the Americans, and I count many amongst my friends; however, their service has largely been trivialized because of the small amount of forces they were able to contribute (not by any fault of theirs). Due to that it is unlikely, other than in the special community mods, that they will get any notice in games. Remember it's all about making money, not making people feel good about themselves (and yes I know SOME gamers use it as a badge, to me it's just a game) or teaching proper history.

[Packetloss]

Originally Posted by Fook_Yu

There are no hero's in war, just a bunch of poor suckers that dont have the balls to tell their leaders to shuff their ego up their ass and some lunatic nationalists who are willing to destroy life for their absurd believes.

Now just wait a damn minute. Leadership is leadership. People who hide behind armies are the people with no balls. But you CANNOT disrespect the men and women who go into harms way for their country and countrymen. There ARE heros in war. Every single allied man and woman - IF you were in a factory making bombs, or a poor GI Slagging up Omaha beach, or Patton driving into the bulge, Or a black sherman commander liberating a concentration camp, Is a ****ing hero. Im free because of them. You have a RIGHT to say what you said because of them. These people are true heros.

Leadership and circumstance aside, they are all heros.

[Meltdown]

I think he's talking (to steal a phrase) more about the "perfumed princes" that currently inhabit the Pentagon. Leaders who don't get down in the dirt with their men; as opposed to the likes of Patton and whomever the Col. is (I can never remember his name, but he's been the attention of alot of media because he is so much like Patton) currently in the USMC that sleeps with his men on the hard concrete and goes into battle right along side them. I have to admit, going to the "professional" military kind of screwed things up in the officer corps because of the career officers that care more about moving themselves up the chain rather than getting the job done right the first time and getting their men home alive.

[Fook_Yu]

War is not a game and its not glorious. Its about missery, destruction and death. You can look with admiration upon the guy who jumped on the granate to save friends and even with admiration for the guy who killed 5 enemy soldier in one go. But in the end it is always a sad story. Nothing great about.

I truelly think that the guy who makes sure he gets home alive to his wife and kids is smarter then they guy who returns with a silver star.

True heros are the ones who do good, like the firemen of NY, etc. The guy with a gun maybe has exeptional skills. I would pledge for complete insanity for anybody who is willing to run op a beach like normandy. But then again, i would also not be capable to gun down anybody who runs up such a beach, should i have been wearing a german helmet at that time.

If i see these reunions of the two forces at WWII celebrations i get F§$"% sick. People willing to throw away the most important thing they have (there life) for a piece of tin or some stupid words by some crazy idiot. Yakkie.

[Meltdown]

Anytime you do your part to preserve the security and freedom of others it is a glorious thing. Was WW-II a great thing that happened? No, BUT every one that served honorably deserves to be noticed for their commitment and the good that they too did, and they performed just as admirably as any firefighter or policeman has done. War is a part of life, and no matter how idealistic or naive oen may be, there is nothing anyone can ever do to change that. There will ALWAYS be those who think they can subjegate whomever they want for whatever reasons they want, and so there will always be the need for war. It is simply a part of life, but firemen, policemen, and soldiers are ALL the same people. They are there to protect, and sacrifice themselves if need be, for the preservation of the freedoms of others. If that isn't glorious, than what is? Remember it is only by the blood of patriots that ANYONE has any of the freedoms they have today.

[Fook_Yu]

The freedom that is celebrated after a war is dictated by the winar. If hitler germany would have won they would have celebrated their freedom too.

But I guess i wont be able to convince you all that should you ever be given the choice to go to war to choose not to do it, whatever the cause

[Meltdown]

Originally Posted by Fook_Yu

The freedom that is celebrated after a war is dictated by the winar. If hitler germany would have won they would have celebrated their freedom too.

But I guess i wont be able to convince you all that should you ever be given the choice to go to war to choose not to do it, whatever the cause

Freedom does not equate subjegation of an entire belief system, euthanasia of the elderly or the disabled, or the oppression of entire races. Freedom is not a "I see it this way, you see it that way" type of thing, it has a very narrow definition. In a free country you can do whatever it is you choose, there may be repercussions to those actions, but you can still do it. In 1930's and 40's Germany that was not the case. If you were of a "suspect" race (i.e. Jews) you were automatically guilty, if you were over a certain age or disabled (and disabled meant for them unable to work in a physically intensive environment such as factories) you were automatically euthanised. There is a very REAL difference between that and what we possess. But no freedom is not dictated by the victor, it is something which at least I (as well as most of the western world) consider a very stringent thing that is a God given right to all simply by our existence. But again that is not to say there is not repercussions for one's actions, depending on how those actions influence the rights and freedom of others.

But it's like Benjamin Franklin once said "Those who would give up their freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security". And none of us are saying "WAR WAR WAR is good!", rather we are saying "At times force is absolutly necessary, and we are not shy or afraid of using said force to keep that freedom". It's simply a fact of life, especially when you get insane people like Kim Song Ill in charge of a country. Would you rather they be in charge of the world?

[*SW€D€*]

Originally Posted by Fook_Yu

The freedom that is celebrated after a war is dictated by the winar. If hitler germany would have won they would have celebrated their freedom too.

But I guess i wont be able to convince you all that should you ever be given the choice to go to war to choose not to do it, whatever the cause

I think I wrote something similar in a thread, long time ago. When you go to war, you do it because you want to protect you culture, values, norms, neighbours etc etc. I respect those who are willing to die for your freedom and your way of life and living. If people (sane or insane) didn't ran up the beaches of Normandy, how do you know that we wouldn't be German or even worse Russian today?
It is with a great deal of respect towards those men I say that I'm damn happy that they were willing to sacrifice thier precious lifes for me and you.
Because that is excacly what they did - sacrified their future for the generations to come in the future (note: I don't care about those Red Army soldiers, since I consider/considerd Sovietunion to be a criminal state, what I can care about thought is that the normal Soviet soldier didn't have much choise - he fight or he dies.)

Conserning the website, I have also seen that site before and all I have to say is that it isn't 100% accurat; e.g We all know that Swedens attitude towards Germany was pretty friendly, they could send troops trough Sweden when they invaded Norway, they could send troops trough Sweden when they invaded Soviet. Sweden sold without moral doubts or hesitations, iron ore to Germany in which Germany's war could continiue. Another fine example is the fact that Germany thought that it would be a good idea if Sweden would implement German race laws, well said and done, it didn't take long till Sweden had signed their own racial law, that limited Jews from a normal life in Sweden. And this was still being reflected as late as in 1986, when the Simon Wiesenthal Center passed on the names of about a dozen suspected German war criminals living in Sweden, and asked Swedish authorities to conduct an investigation. Official investigators told the Wiesenthal Center that it determined it was "unlikely" that a "meaningful examination" could be made of the suspected war criminals.
Thats what it says in out history books when you read about these things in school, they know the truth and they are not affraid of writing it, because every kid in this country should know that we made the wrong choise in the 1930's and 1940's.

When it comes down to is that people die because they believe in something, it could be a Third Reich a Democratic society or a Communist regime. And since the Democratic way of living has succeeded to win I guess I have to say that those who have given their life for the Democratic ideology are the true heroes.
Those Swedes who fought for Waffen-SS thought they fighted against Communism, I seen several documentrys when these men are being interviewed, and it was very fue of them that signed up for the Nazi way of thinking. They considerd Soviet to be a threat against Sweden's way of living, so these men are heroes in MY eyes!

[Bonez]

Originally Posted by Meltdown

however, their service has largely been trivialized because of the small amount of forces they were able to contribute (not by any fault of theirs).

from what i have actually read we set a disproportionate amount of soldiers to our population (not like 10 - 20% of the population more like 40 - 60%) and were given the shittiest jobs, dieppe, vimmy ridge, as well as allmost the entire italian campaign upto the point where rome was liberated(history books know why the british and canadians didn't liberate it, and the reason sucks). oh and i forgot so this i have to add, were also involved in the pacific before pearl harbour. and in china during the invasion by japan.

not to mention was the training ground for the entire Commonwealth RAF(royal air force), and were constantly involved in the hunting of german subs in the atlantic, and intercepting german bombers over britan.

history is written by the winner and the winner is whoever still has the most money after war.